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Mae



Inscrit le: 22 Apr 2007
Messages: 15
Lieu: France

Messageécrit le Sunday 22 Apr 07, 18:06 Répondre en citant ce message   

Comment expliquez vous que le modal "would" peut être utilisé dans des phrases au passé?? Par exemple:

"I wish he would do it" au lieu de "i wish he did it"?

"An idea would shine inside my head but i wouldn't be able to utter a word" au lieu de "an idea shone inside my head but i couldn't utter a word"?

Pourriez vous m'expliquer la différence entre ces trois phrases:

I wish he did it=======>Souhait présent?
I wish he had done it===>Souhait passé?
I wish he would do it===>Souhait futur?
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nick27



Inscrit le: 17 Jan 2007
Messages: 27
Lieu: Namur (Belgique)

Messageécrit le Sunday 22 Apr 07, 18:17 Répondre en citant ce message   

Citation:
Comment expliquez vous que le modal "would" peut être utilisé dans des phrases au passé??

Indeed "would" can be used for expressing past actions. It often suggests that someone did something several times in the past. I guess it's more often used in books.

Citation:
"I wish he would do it" au lieu de "i wish he did it"?

"I wish ..." is a special structure in English.

When you say "I wish he would stop making noise" it means you'd like him (a friend, or whatever) to stop making noise.

When you say "I wish he didn't make noise" it basically means the same thing as the first one but to tell the truth, I think the first structure is better. The second one sounds strange to me. In fact, we often use "I wish you/he/she/it/they would do something" but we say "I wish I did something". Can't really explain why.

About your sentences now :

Citation:
I wish he did it=======>Souhait présent?
I wish he had done it===>Souhait passé?
I wish he would do it===>Souhait futur?

I would have said "I wish he would do it" yep "souhait présent"
I wish he had done it : yep "souhait passé"
The third one is basically the same as the first one.


Dernière édition par nick27 le Sunday 29 Apr 07, 18:32; édité 5 fois
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Zwielicht



Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2007
Messages: 1227
Lieu: la rencontre des eaux

Messageécrit le Monday 23 Apr 07, 18:56 Répondre en citant ce message   

nick27 a écrit:
When you say "I wish he would stop making noise" it means you'd like him (a friend, or whatever) to stop making noise.

When you say "I wish he didn't make noise" it basically means the same thing as the first one but to tell the truth, I think the first structure is better. The second one sounds strange to me. In fact, we often use "I wish you/he/she/it/they would do something" but we say "I wish I did something". Can't really explain why.

I wish he stopped making noise
can be used rather than:
I wish he would stop making noise

I like the former better, for one.

The main difference between
I wish he stopped making noise
and
I wish he didn't make any nose
is that in the first case, something can be done about it, the person can stop making noise at any time, or could. In the second case, it's as if nothing can be done about it. The person is making noise and there's no hoping for it to stop anytime soon.

It was common (~100 years ago) to use should instead of would in this context, viz, I wish that she should come.
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Cadmos



Inscrit le: 18 Mar 2007
Messages: 34
Lieu: Haute-Normandie

Messageécrit le Tuesday 24 Apr 07, 19:28 Répondre en citant ce message   

On l'a travaillé en cours il n'ya pas si longtemps :

En fait, pour exemple "I wish he stopped making noise" est correct, mais on préferera "I wish he would stop making noise". L'utilisation de would indique que la chose désirée dans la phrase dépend de la personne dont il est question.
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Romanovich



Inscrit le: 05 Dec 2006
Messages: 340
Lieu: Poitiers

Messageécrit le Wednesday 25 Apr 07, 11:34 Répondre en citant ce message   

nick27 a écrit:
Indeed "would" can be used for expressing past actions. It often suggests that someone did something several times in the past. I guess it's more often used in books.

which is named in French 'would itératif'
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Brian



Inscrit le: 01 Dec 2006
Messages: 24
Lieu: Beziers

Messageécrit le Sunday 29 Apr 07, 9:51 Répondre en citant ce message   

Mae a écrit:
Hello

Comment expliquez vous que le modal "would" peut être utilisé dans des phrases au passé?? Par exemple:

"I wish he would do it" au lieu de "i wish he did it"?

"An idea would shine inside my head but i wouldn't be able to utter a word" au lieu de "an idea shone inside my head but i couldn't utter a word"?

POurriez vous m'expliquer la différence entre ces trois phrases:

I wish he did it=======>Souhait présent?
I wish he had done it===>Souhait passé?
I wish he would do it===>Souhait futur?


There are three issues here:
a)The literary use

1) "an idea shone inside my head but I couldn't utter a word"? happened ONCE
"An idea would shine inside my head but I wouldn't be able to utter a word" refers to a SERIES of occasions, practically a habit. As Romanovich says "in French 'would itératif'"

b) Wish as regret or discontent
2) I wish he did it is incorrect! "Souhait présent" is 'I wish he would do it'. "would" expresses a discontent, or irritation about what does or doesn't happen, that's why there is the 'would'.

'Wish' which expesses 'des souhaits souvent irréalisibles' or regrets is followed by the prétérit
'I wish I knew her'
3) 'wish' +pluperfect "I wish he had done it" is a regret about the past

I wish I had learnt French at school
'Si seulement j'avais appris le français à l'école'

c) Hopes for the future:

4) Pour les souhaits dans l'avenir il faut employer 'I hope + will'
"I hope you will pass your exam"

I am afraid there is much confusion and bad English in the comments which follow your question.

"I wish he stopped making noise" is incorrect.
a) "stop making A noise", not "making noise"
b) "I wish he WOULD stop", to express the irritation (see above)

Zwielicht wrote

"I wish he stopped making noise
can be used rather than:
I wish he would stop making noise "

NEITHER is correct

Nick wrote
"When you say "I wish he would stop making noise" it means you'd like him (a friend, or whatever) to stop making noise.

When you say "I wish he didn't make noise" it basically means the same thing as the first one "

BOTH are wrong: the first should be 'I wish he would stop making a noise'
the second " I wish he didn't'"is not used

The structure "I wish+ would" is impossible in the first person




Thanks to all
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Castells



Inscrit le: 07 Feb 2007
Messages: 266
Lieu: País Valencià

Messageécrit le Sunday 29 Apr 07, 15:47 Répondre en citant ce message   

@Brian:
Your message is difficult to read and this makes it hardly understandable...

Articles:
As far as I know and as it appears in the dictionaries, noise can be both uncountable and countable.
This means that to say make noise is as correct as to say make money:
They are making noise again
In addition, if you speak about a concrete noise, it's better to use a determiner rather than the indefinite article 'a':
He is making a noise but I wish he stopped making that noise
I think that the sentence I wish he stopped making noise/that noise is better than I wish he stopped making a noise (A noise? Which one?)

Wishes/complaints:
These three sentences are perfectly possible:
I wish he stopped making noise (There is nothing I can do)
I wish he had stopped making noise (There was nothing I could do)
I wish he would stop making noise (I'm complaining)
The first two sentences represent wishes that can't be accomplished or are out of control, the first in the present, the second refers to the past.
The third sentence represents a complaint. (wish..would is used to express complaints)

Regards.
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Zwielicht



Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2007
Messages: 1227
Lieu: la rencontre des eaux

Messageécrit le Sunday 29 Apr 07, 16:50 Répondre en citant ce message   

Castells is right.

I think that Brian's post is partially incorrect, partially confusing, and at best, off-topic.
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Brian



Inscrit le: 01 Dec 2006
Messages: 24
Lieu: Beziers

Messageécrit le Monday 30 Apr 07, 1:15 Répondre en citant ce message   

[quote="Castells"]@Brian:
Your message is difficult to read and this makes it hardly understandable...



The structure of my post is:
1) I reply to Mae's literary example of 'would'
2) I explain the use of wish as regret for the past or irritation about the present
3) I show how to express future wishes, with 'hope'

So I don't understand how you can say it is difficult to read, or as Zwielicht says 'off-topic'

As for 'making a noise' it is the same as in French
not 'faire bruit' but 'faire du bruit'
but just ask any native speaker...


in addition I don't agree with you when you say

"These three sentences are perfectly possible:
I wish he stopped making noise (There is nothing I can do) "
is incorrect

it should be "I wish he would stop making a noise "
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Castells



Inscrit le: 07 Feb 2007
Messages: 266
Lieu: País Valencià

Messageécrit le Monday 30 Apr 07, 15:30 Répondre en citant ce message   

Brian a écrit:
So I don't understand how you can say it is difficult to read, or as Zwielicht says 'off-topic'

Your message is a soup... Quote boxes are used to distinguish the things that others wrote from the things that one writes. Your message includes messages from several users and your answers mixed inside Mae's quote box. Please pay attention to the way my message uses them...

To be kept in mind: noise in english is both uncountable and countable and can be used in both contexts.

Brian a écrit:
not 'faire bruit' but 'faire du bruit'

Of course. And according to you, faire du bruit = to make a noise?
Are you using 'a' for the french partitive with uncountable nouns?

Just in the name of coherence, do you say?:
to eat a cheese / to earn a money for the sentences: manger du fromage / gagner de l'argent
instead of using: to eat cheese / to earn money

Brian a écrit:
but just ask any native speaker...

It is not necessary...

Brian a écrit:
I wish he stopped making noise (There is nothing I can do) is incorrect

!!!
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Brian



Inscrit le: 01 Dec 2006
Messages: 24
Lieu: Beziers

Messageécrit le Monday 30 Apr 07, 17:05 Répondre en citant ce message   

[Of course. And according to you, faire du bruit = to make a noise?

Yes! and according to the Collins/Robert dictionary
You could also consult:
http://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/cw-do-make-expressions.htm
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Castells



Inscrit le: 07 Feb 2007
Messages: 266
Lieu: País Valencià

Messageécrit le Monday 30 Apr 07, 17:28 Répondre en citant ce message   

I don't like this kind of discussions but I can't help answering...

@Brian:
I bet that you haven't still realized that noise can be both uncountable and countable (I've "only" told it twice or three times...) and that "making noise" and "making a noise" are different possible constructions...
Of course you didn't answer... Do you say "to eat a cheese" for "manger du fromage"?
You can eat a cheese = manger un fromage and you can eat cheese = manger du fromage
In english you can also make a noise = faire un bruit and you can make noise = faire du bruit...

News and articles from the BBC: (suspicious of using "bad english"...)
*** Theme park allowed to make noise
*** All of us are sometimes bothered by noise and we all make noise
*** Bubbles make noise the sharks would feel and hear

1.020.000 links in internet for "make noise":
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q=%22make+noise%22&meta=

820.000 links for "making noise":
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q=%22making+noise%22&meta=
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Romanovich



Inscrit le: 05 Dec 2006
Messages: 340
Lieu: Poitiers

Messageécrit le Tuesday 01 May 07, 14:24 Répondre en citant ce message   

to make a noise about something doesn't mean make one noise, but to complain a lot about something.
That's why to make a noise is accepted.

I don't agree with Castell's phrases
Citation:
You can eat a cheese = manger un fromage and you can eat cheese = manger du fromage

To me, the first one is not acceptable. you'll say a piece/slice of cheese or the entire cheese but never 'alone'.
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Zwielicht



Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2007
Messages: 1227
Lieu: la rencontre des eaux

Messageécrit le Tuesday 01 May 07, 14:51 Répondre en citant ce message   

This thread is getting worse by the hour.
Romanovich a écrit:
to make a noise about something doesn't mean make one noise, but to complain a lot about something.
That's why to make a noise is accepted.
Romanovich, don't you agree that both meanings co-exist? It made a noise as it collapsed, for instance.
Romanovich a écrit:
I don't agree with Castell's phrases
Citation:
You can eat a cheese = manger un fromage and you can eat cheese = manger du fromage

To me, the first one is not acceptable. you'll say a piece/slice of cheese or the entire cheese but never 'alone'.
Whether you agree or not, please consider all possibilities. I once ate a cheese that was very good is acceptable.

Castells' point was not that "I eat a cheese" was the only correct form or even a common one. He was merely pointing out that it could exist, and in which context.
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Castells



Inscrit le: 07 Feb 2007
Messages: 266
Lieu: País Valencià

Messageécrit le Tuesday 01 May 07, 14:57 Répondre en citant ce message   

Romanovich a écrit:
to make a noise about something doesn't mean make one noise, but to complain a lot about something. That's why to make a noise is accepted.

There's also the countable meaning of noise:

Both general noise and a concrete noise:
*** Rocks make noise even when you DON’T explode them. Kick a rock, drop a rock, hit a rock with a spoon, it will make a noise
A concrete noise:
*** Why does a metal detector make a noise when it passes over metal? Investigate the physics and gain the know-how to make one for yourself
Two noises, three and more...:
*** Then, make one, simple noise with your instrument and ask your child to try to imitate it with their instrument. Then, make two noises, then three

Romanovich a écrit:
Citation:
You can eat a cheese = manger un fromage and you can eat cheese = manger du fromage

To me, the first one is not acceptable. you'll say a piece/slice of cheese or the entire cheese but never 'alone'.

If the cheese is small, you can eat the whole cheese... Never mind, try changing "eat" by "buy" and Pax Christi...
to buy a cheese = acheter un fromage (the whole cheese) / to eat cheese = manger du fromage

I think that the choice uncountable/countable is crystal clear. The examples are by thousands...

_______________________________________________________________________________


Dernière édition par Castells le Tuesday 01 May 07, 22:16; édité 5 fois
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