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meuuh
Inscrit le: 12 Jun 2006 Messages: 982 Lieu: Mie en ole opaštuja Karjalašša
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écrit le Saturday 02 Dec 06, 2:08 |
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Animation du forum (jacques) :
Voir aussi
Le "tu" et le "vous" dans les langues
Dae thoo kens ? (Scots)
I've seen several times the word thou in some text on the web or in books... I'm not sure of its definition: does it mean tu? because it seems to be near to the old norse þú... But I'm not sure... Personnaly, I think that's an older word used in english to say you... |
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Pixel
Inscrit le: 14 Dec 2004 Messages: 961 Lieu: Au pays des grenouilles, avec vue sur la mare...
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écrit le Saturday 02 Dec 06, 2:39 |
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Alors si je me souviens bien, "thou" est le pronom personnel sujet "tu", "thee" le pronom personnel complément "toi" et "thy" l'adjective possessif "ton".
C'est du vieil-anglais, mais je pense que ça a une connotation de respect aussi... genre envers un Dieu...
Citation: |
The fly [William Blake]
Little fly,
Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand
Has brushed away.
Am not I
A fly like thee ?
Or art not thou
A man like me ?
For I dance
And drink and sing,
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wings.
If thought is life
And strength & breath,
And the want
Of thought is death ;
Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live
Or if I die ? |
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Jacques
Inscrit le: 25 Oct 2005 Messages: 6525 Lieu: Etats-Unis et France
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écrit le Saturday 02 Dec 06, 6:33 |
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En effet , thou, c'est du tutoiement (cf. all. du) et you, c'est du vouvoiement, aussi bizarre que ça paraisse.
Pour s'adresser à Dieu, on met quand même une majuscule à Thou. Les anglophones de nombreuses religions considèrent l'usage de Thou comme une forme respectueuse. En voici quelques exemples trouvés sur la toile.
- Église catholique (traduction en anglais d'un discours pontifical) :Thou art raised above the angels (Tu es élevé au dessus des anges)
- Église Presbyterienne (First Presbyterian Church of Las Vegas) : How great Thou art! (Que Tu es grand)
- Église byzantine (Music de cantiques byzantins) : Thou art the true vine (Tu es la vraie vigne)
- Islam : O Allah! Thou art our companion in this journey (O Allah ! Tu est notre compagnon dans ce voyage)
- Judaisme (Rabbi Eugene ...) : We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee (nous te louons, nous te bénissons, nous t'adorons ...)
- Mormons (Livre de Mormon, 6:126:15) : Blessed art thou (Bénis sois-tu)
Note : Thee est la forme accusative de Thou
Dernière édition par Jacques le Saturday 25 Jan 14, 23:45; édité 4 fois |
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Brian
Inscrit le: 01 Dec 2006 Messages: 24 Lieu: Beziers
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écrit le Saturday 02 Dec 06, 9:58 |
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meuuh a écrit: | I've seen several times the word thou in some text on the web or in books... I'm not sure of its definition: does it mean tu? because it seems to be near to the old norse þú... But I'm not sure... Personnaly, I think that's an older word used in english to say you... |
I agree with what the others have written, but would like to add:
Just as in French there is a difference of familiarity between you and thou (plural "ye" as in "oh ye of little faith)
Look at the changes between thou and you in the first scene of "King Lear":
When the king is talking like a father he uses thou to his daughters, but when they annoy him he uses you..but he also uses thou as an insult!
Some examples:
GONERIL
Sir, I love YOU more than words can wield the matter
( to show her (hypocritical) respect
KING LEAR
To THEE and THINE hereditary ever
Remain this ample third of our fair kingdom
( he is pleased with her).."Thine" is "les tiennes"
But Cordelia refuses to flatter him and so :
KING LEAR
How, how, Cordelia! mend YOUR speech a little,
Lest it may mar YOUR fortunes.
He is warning her by the coldness of the YOU.
Later when he has disinherited her he says:
KING LEAR
Better THOU
Hadst not been born than not to have pleased me better.
At this point it is the contemptuous thou (like a French policeman using "tu" to a young immigrant
[/i] |
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Vassiliki
Inscrit le: 27 Feb 2006 Messages: 190 Lieu: ATHENES
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écrit le Saturday 02 Dec 06, 15:42 |
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Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with Thee
Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. |
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Gaillimh
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2005 Messages: 366 Lieu: Aberdeen (Ecosse)
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écrit le Friday 08 Dec 06, 0:00 |
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Aussi, si thou a disparu, c'est parce que les gens trouvaient impoli de l'utiliser... Du coup, on a gardé you pour le pluriel et le singulier. |
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Vassiliki
Inscrit le: 27 Feb 2006 Messages: 190 Lieu: ATHENES
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écrit le Friday 08 Dec 06, 1:28 |
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O thou, that tellest good tidings to Zion
The Messiah, G.F.Haendel |
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meuuh
Inscrit le: 12 Jun 2006 Messages: 982 Lieu: Mie en ole opaštuja Karjalašša
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écrit le Sunday 04 Mar 07, 1:19 |
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Ok, merci de l'info
Thank yese for the wittins... |
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Cuauhtémoc
Inscrit le: 22 Feb 2007 Messages: 102 Lieu: Metz (Divodorum)
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écrit le Sunday 04 Mar 07, 10:49 |
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Il me semble que le vouvoiement et le tutoiement était distingué en anglais jusqu'aù XVIIIe siècle. Qu'est-ce qui a fait disparaître cela? |
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Romanovich
Inscrit le: 05 Dec 2006 Messages: 340 Lieu: Poitiers
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 16:04 |
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"Thou shall not..." : les dix commandements bibliques sont sous cette forme.
Etymonline.com a deux entrées pour you et thou. Et une autre entrée pour thee. |
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Dino
Inscrit le: 09 Oct 2006 Messages: 479 Lieu: Αθήνα – Ελλάδα
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 17:06 |
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Citation: | Shakespeare: Macbeth: The three witches: |
"Thrice for mine and thrice for thine and thrice again to make up nine."
Dernière édition par Dino le Monday 05 Mar 07, 18:53; édité 1 fois |
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Dino
Inscrit le: 09 Oct 2006 Messages: 479 Lieu: Αθήνα – Ελλάδα
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 18:45 |
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Citation: | Friedrich Nietsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra: |
"When thou goest to women, forget not thy whip."(*)
(*) Ille dixit. |
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Vassiliki
Inscrit le: 27 Feb 2006 Messages: 190 Lieu: ATHENES
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 21:29 |
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Romanovich a écrit: | "Thou shall not..." : les dix commandements bibliques sont sous cette forme. |
I think it must be Thou shalt not.. |
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Romanovich
Inscrit le: 05 Dec 2006 Messages: 340 Lieu: Poitiers
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 22:00 |
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Yep ... I found both on the Internet and I don't have the necessary knowledge in this field to tell how it is said in the bible. |
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Vassiliki
Inscrit le: 27 Feb 2006 Messages: 190 Lieu: ATHENES
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écrit le Monday 05 Mar 07, 22:05 |
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And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 3:14-16
King James Version
I think there must be a difference between the two forms. Shalt is used only for the 2nd person. |
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